A lot of what I’m going to say will probably be already known, I have not found this issue elsewhere but I guess it is not the first time someone addresses it. I place my focus on activism, obviously Tails and Tor Browser have other user groups as well.
There are a lot of activists with a wide variety of threat models that want to protect themselves from information gathering (aka spying) from nation-states. A lot of them get quickly annoyed and tired by tech mumbo-jumbo and thus only implement tech security measures when they are explicitly and repeatedly told to do so by reliable sources.
The problem is that many of these people still use Tor Browser on Windows, thinking that Tor Browser alone can protect them from (almost) everything. I’m not talking about high profile cases here, it’s about the countless people in popular and private assemblies that are every day more organized and interconnected, and therefore form a small but ever growing decentralized counter-power to nation-states and their allies. It would not be the first time that, even if the vast majority of these people are not “high profile”, nation-states invest a lot of time and money to gather information about their activities, connections and whereabouts.
I think that the Tor Browser needs to give this issue more visibility. Maybe on the downloads page, but probably even in the browser itself. Somewhere, somehow, people should be made aware of that, if they think that for their activist related activities they should be using Tor Browser, they should do it on a well known Linux distro - or even better on Tails. Although probably it should be formulated in a way so that the Tor Project cannot get in any legal trouble because of this.
I know plenty of activists that had been using Tor Browser for years and had never heard about Tails
The one thing which should be made clear is that Tor is for anonymity and hides your IP address like a VPN except the VPN operator knows it and what IP you are going to.
If you visit a site which sends a malicious payload then that malware travels encrypted through the internet until it hits your machine. Now it’s the job of your anti-virus and your “internet instincts” which you should have developed and honed if you are an activist. I have no numbers but will say that most people use smartphones today and those carry your life. I know more and more people who have no computers; just a smartphone. So if protection is important to the activist start here.
I made a case for that here: Is using Mullvad DAITA or NymVPN a good idea with tor network? - #4 by BobbyB
Now you are making a case for Linux.
The last time I checked (about 1 year ago) ~80-85% of desktop computers use Windows (not sure if this counts pirated copies). Of the remaining % it is mostly Macs. This leaves a small 1 digit % for the rest. Asking people to switch to one of the too many flavours of Linux will not happen. Linux is king for servers though.
This leave Tails which I have tried. There is tech mumbo-jumbo here also. For that ~80-85% above it means getting Rufus and creating a USB stick. Now you have to boot your laptop from this USB stick and wait for this “obscure”(to them) OS to come up. Compared to a SSD boot this is long. For those high profile people like journalists in the field it makes no difference. Their lives may depend on it.
Thanks for your response! I think that a lot of what you say is, although true, not on point (maybe I’ve not expressed myself correctly) and that maybe we have made different experiences between Tor Browser and activism over the years.
It is about clarifying security expectations on Tor Browser Desktop. If the Tor Project clearly states - inside the browser - that using Tor Browser on Tails is far more suited for activism than using it for Windows/macOS, a lot of people will definitely follow that advice, even if they have to learn new stuff. There are a lot of people that, though reluctant to learn new tech mumbo-jumbo, will definitely do it if they are, as said before, explicitly and repeatedly told to do so by reliable sources - and for the vast majority of activists, the Tor Project has an impeccable reputation.
Regarding smartphones. Yes, they could all use Signal or even better Molly, GrapheneOS and harden their settings. Or just avoid doing any activist related activity on the smartphone. But generally a lot of activists (at least in my social circles) already know that a smartphone is generally not to be trusted. That is exactly why a lot of them fall into a false sense of security when using Tor Browser on Windows.
But truth be told, my point was not about smartphones or where to start protecting activists, I’m being specific about Tor Browser and Desktop. That there are a lot of people feeling almost completely protected when they are clearly not - and that they would in fact try out Tails if someone with enough credibility advised them to do so.
In my opinion, Tor on Windows/MacOS is better then just browsing without it, especially if you live in a country that censors free speech and monitors internet activity. But Windows/MacOS themselves are compromised, and it’s up to them whether or not to give data to those countries. If Copilot screenshots you doing something the government won’t like and if they send to the Russian Federation or China or whatever else it’s over. Maybe people don’t want to go through the trouble of doing a full switch to Linux? Maybe just running Linux Mint or Tails on a virtual machine with Copilot turned off is at least something better then just running on raw Windows.
I don’t quite understand the Copilot reference which I understand to mean Microsoft Copilot.
If you are using Copilot via the Edge browser then it does not apply here because it is not using Tor.
You could be proxying Edge through some instance of Tor. That request would probably use Tor.
I doubt you are doing either of these.
You could be using Copilot via another browser or Tor browser by going to Bing dot com.
In all these cases you would need to sign in. So yes Microsoft would know who and where you are. Would they do this voluntarily or be forced? Don’t know. In either case you are right “it’s over”.
DuckDuckGo has an AI. It’s free and no sign in. duck.ai
OK, I’ll buy into that. Of the 3 options Tails is the safest for the fact that it does not use the hard drive, thus leaving traces, and it wipes memory when shutting down. Good high profile people. For occasional users it is a bit inconvenient but safest.
if they think that for their activist related activities they should be using Tor Browser, they should do it on a well known Linux distro - or even better on Tails
You are really making the case that Tor on Linux is better. Agreed Windows is bloated and lots going on in the background; don’t know for Macs. But once you have started your Tor browser, and doing whatever, how different is it than on a Mac or Windows. Once your packets hit the Tor network the OS is unknown. Can you give examples of where or how it makes a difference.
Agreed Tor needs more visibility. To most Tor is the dark web and they see it as a tool for illegal activities as in illegal anywhere in the world like kiddie porn and drugs and guns, etc.
My point is not that Tor Browser on Linux may generally be better. But that if activists - that invest lots of time on stuff that nation-states and their allies hate - think they should be using Tor Browser, they should probably be using Tails. It is about the added security that Tails provides (or from the other perspective - that Windows/macOS does not), I’m not talking specifically about network security but security overall - from not having bloated spyware down to the amnesic nature of Tails.
A basic example: I’m organizing a protest and create/have an image which I upload to my organization’s Nextcloud/Cryptpad/whatever to be shared online afterwards. If I am on Tails, I do not have to install any additional software, as I have a metadata cleaner preinstalled. After I upload it I either have no use for it (so I delete it) or I want to store it locally. In both cases I would be safer on Tails.
Now imagine that some day my organization gets labelled as a terrorist organization (has been happening for years in many countries, also if people in these organizations were not “high profile” and if protests were peaceful). It is far harder for authorities to access data on Tails then if I would use Windows. Both remotely and if they would have physical access (please correct me if I’m wrong).
I feel like Tor Browser doesn’t need much more attention in activist communities (although the more the better) as it is generally well known, but Tails does. I think promoting Tails through Tor Browser (being specific, that for certain use cases Tails is the more appropriate OS) would make a lot of sense.
What you post fits my definition of high profile in a hostile environment, so Tails is the best solution for them. Maybe having someone more knowledgeable helping other not so knowledgeable people setup and using Tails is some sort of way to promote Tails.
I have been using Tor Browser on TailsOS almost exclusively for a coupe of years now. Yes there is a price to pay for privacy and security, which is that anything requiring an internet connection takes a bit longer. So far, that’s a price I’m happy to pay (noting that I am on a 500Mbps down/50Mbps up plan).
You are right that it takes some time and fiddling to boot up and configure for use from scratch. For that reason, I avoid shutting down my computer, and select Suspend whenever I won’t be using it for a while.
OK then I have a question for you. Don’t answer if you don’t want to. It’s touchy.
Do you use a smartphone? I assume yes. Do you pay everything (like coffee, groceries, etc) with the smartphone (or a debit/credit card) like most people or do you pay cash so as to remain anonymous?
I do have a smartphone, yes. I have been using the Samsung Android ROM since my first smartphone in 2011. Some time ago, for several years, I was keeping an eye on alternative ROMs, and finally settled in Cyanogen Mod. I had a phone fail due to water, and bought a refurbished Samsung. By that time, Cyanogen Mod had become unavailable.
I am now trying to decide whether to install a different ROM image to my Samsung SM-G980F, or just buy a refurbished Google Pixel 9 and install GrapheneOS like I did on my Google Pixel tablet computer (when my earlier UbuntuTouch tabelt had failed).
I use cash for 100% of purchases. I am always carrying AUD$300 - AUD$600 in my pocket (with a little leather coin pouch as well). Occasionally, a retailer will see me pull the money clip out of my pocket, and say “card only”, which gets “oh. That’s a shame.” as I turn and walk away.
Except for online stuff, like my web sites, so do I.
Ah, you gave away your cards too soon. The funnier version would be to go back there, put together a big order, wait until the cashier tallies it all then pull out cash. Now they have to cancel that transaction and put all that stuff back on shelves.
I think this is a valid concern. Tor Browser is an important privacy tool, but many users may not realize that using it on Windows does not provide the same level of protection as using a privacy-focused operating system such as Tails.
For people with higher-risk threat models, especially activists who may face targeted surveillance, it could be useful for the Tor Project to make this distinction more visible. A short warning or guidance on the download page, documentation, or even within Tor Browser could help users understand the limitations of their current setup.
At the same time, I think the message should avoid implying that Tails makes someone completely anonymous or protected from every threat. It would be better to explain the different threat models and why using a dedicated environment can reduce certain risks.
Many long-time Tor Browser users may simply not know that Tails exists or that it is designed for a different level of privacy protection. Better visibility and clear guidance could help those users make more informed decisions.
